Today on Facebook I came across a photo, shared and “liked” hundreds of times, that said:
“Dear ‘Females:’ I’m fedup. Done. Finished. I always hear stories about girls not being able to trust guys because they cheated, or treated them bad, or hit them. I always hear stories of girls saying they just don’t want to be with guys because of past relationships. Say that you’re waiting for a good guy etc. But why the f*** when you get a good GREAT guy you ignore him. Call your best friend or some shit like that and when he falls for you, you give him some bullshit about how you’re not ready for a relationship…then two hours later you’re f***ing some asshole who clearly didn’t give a f*** about you before. Dear females…you constantly wonder where the good guys are. They’re out there…I’m just letting you know that you’re the ones making us scarce. Sincerly, Good Guy…or rather New Found Asshole.” (sic)
Now I’m a busy person and I don’t have time to enumerate all the things that are wrong with this, starting with the bizarre use of quotation marks around “females” to the perpetuation of stereotypes and social structures that created this screwed-up thinking. But I’ll hit some of the bigger points. It’s something I’ve been thinking about for a while.
A couple of years ago, a guy I no longer consider a friend treated me to a two-hour analysis of his friendship with a woman he was attracted to but who clearly didn’t reciprocate the feeling. The fact that she was, to put it delicately, quite a bit out of his reach on many fronts hadn’t dawned on him, and he kept repeating the phrases “but I’m a good guy!” and “girls always complain that there aren’t any good guys!”
It made me wonder, as he droned on, what led him to this conclusion. In considering his goodness, does he refer to memories of how he acts around his grandmother? How he tips his waiters? The fact that when he walks by a puppy, he refrains from kicking it? Because I know a lot of people who do truly heinous and abhorrent things, but I’m certain that not one of them would say “I’m a reprehensible person!” in anything but a Chuck Bass “I dare you to prove me wrong” way. Psychology shows that we go out of our way to convince ourselves we’re good people and overlook or excuse things we do wrong.
So, “good guys,” consider that maybe you aren’t so flawless after all. And, sure, maybe you’re not abusive, and some men who are still have girlfriends and wives– but is that really what you’d say to a woman who’s being abused? Rather than trying to help them, and all women, understand that they deserve better, you’d tell us that we deserve any abuse we get because we overlooked precious, wonderful you? Instead of spouting the usual nonsense about how “women must love assholes (because they aren’t clamoring for me),” try setting a good example of male behavior whenever you’re interacting with a woman, whether she’s a girlfriend, friend, sister, or stranger so abusive or disrespectful relationships become more unthinkable.
But most of all, stop thinking that what people so loathingly refer to as the “friendzone” is some sort of purgatory women put “nice guys” into. My friendship is not a crappy consolation prize that you’re left with if I deny you a sexual relationship– and my body is not your reward for good behavior. Thinking that simply being a “good guy,” whatever that may mean, entitles you to unlimited sex with the girl of your choice shows that you don’t truly believe women should be in control of, and have full ownership of, our own bodies; instead, it shows you think we should use them like doggy treats whenever you do the human equivalent of a jumping trick. If you treat us as humans, that’s fantastic, but we do not owe you for it.
One of the worst outcomes of the “but I’m a good guy” phenomenon is that it overshadows the many, many men who don’t think this way and instead realize that if we don’t want to go out with them, that’s our choice and we most likely have a good reason for it, even if we don’t feel like sharing what that reason is. The word “friendzone” has crept into the vocabularies of even the most respectful, enlightened men, and I think it’s time we push back. Why not call it something more poetic and accurate, like “unrequited love” or “unreturned affection?” If you do, you’ll know that at least your grasp of the English language is better than that of the “New Found Asshole” who aired his thoughts so brutishly on Facebook.
59 comments
Mandy says:
Jan 30, 2012
Yes, yes, and yes, especially that part about the “friendzone.” How I hate that insipid little term. Because golly gee, what a terrible thing being a friend is. My best fiend at Duke, whom I love more than I can put into words and for whom I would throw myself in front of a bullet? Man, he sure does have it awful, that he’s not having sex with me. What? He doesn’t mind? But…but he’s in the “friendzone!” And I heard that was like the worst thing ever.
A guy who is ACTUALLY a nice guy, as opposed to a Nice Guy (TM), is very similar to a nice girl: one who will still hang out with you, get lunch, go to the club, play video games, or whatever, regardless of whether or not you and he are sleeping together (though I will permit periods of heartbreak and subsequent dissociation after a breakup). Guys like the one you cited? Are not nice.
Deborah says:
Jan 30, 2012
nice analysis of the issue hurray!
An asshole says:
Jan 31, 2012
Okay, understood. But even if that’s how you feel, don’t go to your friends that are good guys and talk about how “there are no good guys for me”! Often, you KNOW this guy likes you, and you would never date him, but you still complain about relationships to him – and yes, dare I say it, keep him around for attention (guys do this too).
“Thinking that simply being a “good guy,” whatever that may mean, entitles you to unlimited sex with the girl of your choice” – this is 100% opposite from the mindset that “good guys” have. Good guys never pressure girls into hooking up, most of them to the point of never confessing their feelings because this would put the girl in an awkward rejection scenario. The “assholes” are super forward, take little regard for a woman’s feelings, and yet often end up being the object of affection for said woman. Or, as the facebook author eloquently put it, she ends up “f***ing [this] asshole who clearly didn’t give a f*** about you before.” Yeah, he’s bitter and perpetuating sterotypes, but it sounds like this guy finally got the guts to say something and was let down pretty hard. I wouldn’t get too angry at him; oftentimes the sad, aching self-pity is the only thing that is keeping him as a “nice guy.”
Alisa says:
Apr 28, 2012
actually no, this mentality of friend zoning and being a good guy deserving of sex IS a sort of pressure on women to hook up with whoever deems themselves “good” enough. it removes the autonomy from women by invalidating their choices in partners, claiming that the guy’s view of himself is the only one that should matter in the woman’s judgement. the entire things sounds creepy, controlling, and this passive aggression can easily cross into actual aggression.
Lisa says:
Apr 29, 2012
Take it from someone old enough to be your mother…almost every guy who thinks the girl didn’t choose him simply because he’s a “good guy” is just trying to protect his ego from rejection. A good guy doesn’t blame a woman for rejecting his advances.
If you’re really one of the “good guys,” have patience. When girls grow into good women, they want boys who grew up into good men. I’ve been married to mine for 20 great years.
Ana says:
May 6, 2012
Usually guys like the ones depicted on this publication do pressure women, they may fool themselfs into believing they dont but they do. Firt of all, if you use the word friendzone to talk about your relationship with a girl you are pressuring her; being a “friendzone”r girl is pretty much seen as being a bitch and no woman wants to be called that by her piers much less by someone they consider a friend. So they try to avoid that a thus feel pressured to accept unwanted affection.
There are really good guys out there, but being good is not a reason for going out with somebody; there are lots of other things like chemistry, preferences, feelings, etc.
At the end of the day the girl can choose the good, the bad or the worse; but at the end it’s her decision and she still has all the right to want a better man for the future and still make mistakes.
Most importantly, men also reject good girls, the thing is that women are too socialized into believing they are at fault of that to complain.
True Story says:
Jan 31, 2012
I’m a guy and I agree with this post, especially because some males have a hard time understanding that being a “good guy” is not the same thing as being sexually attractive; and this is beginning to get on my nerves. Sex symbols are not known for their moral values, but for their bodies and confidence. So, guys, if you want sex, cut the cuteness. You are not likely to receive a roll in the hay because you brought her soup when she’s sick or all that. Man up and turn her on.
Shotaiken says:
May 14, 2012
:-( What’s wrong with liking guys who bring us soup when we’re sick or all that? Different strokes for different chicks, yo. Not everyone wants a man who to “man up”, some of us want a guy who is soft and sweet.
Katy says:
May 14, 2012
I think he meant that, if you ONLY want sex with a girl you should not try to deceive her by acting like you actually care for her/her feelings
Deborah says:
Jan 31, 2012
to “an asshole”, there is a difference between being an asshole with no sensitivity for how women feel and being a confident person who is willing to express his feelings when he gets good signals from a girl. In addition, just because a Nice Guy doesn’t want to sexually assault girls at Shooters doesn’t make him an actual nice guy, as the author of this article has so effectively shown.
Duke Guy says:
Jan 31, 2012
As a guy who tries really hard to be nice, I find this post to be somewhat offensive on a few levels. I’ll start by saying that I completely agree with you that the initial Facebook post to which you’re responding is indeed poorly and even “brutishly” written. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t some legitimacy to its sentiment.
First of all, I’m troubled by the conflation of sex and relationships. “Nice guys” don’t at all view your body as a “reward for good behavior”…genuine nice guys are too nice for that. In fact, sex probably isn’t even our primary goal. If we do indeed have romantic interest in you, it’s often long-term interest. We enjoy being kind to you in a friendly way, and perhaps we’d like to extend that into a formalized relationship where we’re more than just an occasional nice guy. We want to be THE nice guy, who you count on for support and kindness. It’s grossly underestimating us to think we just want to get in bed with you as some kind of payment for being nice…did you consider that maybe we actually want the opportunity to be even MORE nice?
Also, I don’t like your lack of attention to the definition of what it means to be a “nice guy.” No, we don’t view ourselves as nice merely because we don’t kick puppies. We’re the ones who will bring you soup when you’re sick (as commenter True Story suggests), or really listen when you have something you need to vent about, or accompany you someplace when you need someone to go with you. And we actually, in many cases, don’t even view these things as inconveniences…we do them because we genuinely enjoy helping other people out.
And trust me, girls at Duke have choices between the sorts of guys that will do those kinds of nice things, and guys who are (likely more sexually attractive) but who aren’t willing to make commitments to support and consistent kindness. Duke girls are free to choose either one, and I firmly believe that they should choose what they prefer. But then you have the constant complaining about “stupid frat boys” who just want hookups (and it’s always the “nice guys” who end up listening to these complaints)…this very blog recently posted an entry entitled “Dear Duke Guys” imploring Duke boys to step back from hookups and actually take a girl on a date. So, you’re telling me that, as a nice guy, I should be interested in making the effort to be nice to you, and take you on a date and all of that…but then not be disappointed when my “love” is “unrequited”? That seems awfully unfair to me.
Neha says:
Jan 31, 2012
Wait, does that mean I am morally obligated to enter into long-term relationships every time some self-identified “nice guy” dangles the possibility in front of my face?
I like to hold the men in my life to what some might consider impossibly high standards- they all have to be nice to me, the same way I am nice to all of them. It’s not a matter of “trying,” how hard is it to be nice to someone you like or care about?
I don’t care if I want more, I don’t care if they want more. We bring eachother soup because we care about eachother. That’s the end of it.
And just because a man wants sex with me doesn’t mean he’s not a good man. Taking me on a date isn’t being nice- it’s taking me on a date.
Finally, I would just like to say that just because I want a relationship, doesn’t mean I want a relationship with just any man who takes me on a date. The same way that a woman seeking casual sex isn’t just a sexual free-for-all for any man who will approach her. Believe it or not, what I want with someone (friendship, hook up, relationship, etc) depends on who they are. I am offended by your last line, because it seems to imply that your asking me on a date (just because I might prefer dates to hook ups) entitles you to my romantic interest, independent of who you are and what I think our compatibility is.
Duke Guy says:
Feb 1, 2012
@Neha, whoa…where did I even hint at any “obligation” to be in a relationship with a nice guy or that anyone is “entitled” to your romantic interest? I think I made it pretty explicit that I not only respect but fully encourage and support the right of women to make whatever choices they want with regard to their sex and relationships. I wrote that at least twice. I further stated no obligation for you to have sex with a guy who takes you on a date, nor did I say that someone is not a “good guy” if he wants sex. With that out of the way…
What I am entitled to, in my opinion, is my right to be disappointed when a girl chooses what another man has to offer (say, sexual attractiveness) over what I have to offer (say, kindness). I’m not questioning her right to make the choice, or even questioning the choice itself. But that doesn’t mean I don’t have a right to be disappointed in it, much the same way as it’s fine for anyone to be disappointed when a potential employer chooses to hire a different candidate (for example).
Furthermore, I understand where you’re coming from with the whole “we bring each other soup because we care about each other, and that’s the end of it” bit, but I guess I don’t know how you find love if that’s always the end of it. You probably know way more about love than I do, but to me, love lies in those small favors, in the meaningful willingness of a woman to go out of her way for me. Few things make me feel more valuable. Am I saying that I assume everyone who brings me soup is automatically demonstrating romantic interest? No, not at all. Does it mean that I’m romantically interested in everyone that I take soup to? No, not at all. But if I want to show romantic interest or be shown it, those small “nice guy/girl” favors are the place I’m going to notice it. Sometimes boys like me hope a girl will notice that, and she doesn’t. And then complains about how the boys she hooks up with won’t show her the same kindness (again, I refer to “Dear Duke Boys”). And then continues hooking up with those other boys. It’s TOTALLY, ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY, 100% FINE for her to do that, because maybe she doesn’t see compatibility or any of a myriad of other reasons. But I think you can imagine how that might be frustrating for the “nice guy.” And all I’m asking for is the right to that frustration.
Duke Trinity says:
Feb 1, 2012
Yes, of course you have the right to be disappointed. In fact, disappointment is probably natural if you put in the energy and thought into taking interest in someone and asking her out. Just don’t channel that disappointment into personal attacks, for example attacking her values. It’s usually not that they prefer assholes over nice guys. Quite the opposite. It might not even be that they don’t like you. Unfortunately, being nice, although commendable and essential, is only one personality trait amongst many others that determine compatibility.
Duke Guy says:
Feb 2, 2012
@Duke Trinity
First and foremost, thank you for your acknowledgment of my right to be disappointed, and that such disappointment is indeed natural. I appreciate that.
I’d just like to point out, though, that I feel this post is saying much more than merely that I shouldn’t channel my disappointment into personal attacks. Consider the author’s account of her conversation with the “guy [she] no longer consider[s] a friend.” The implication is that she considered him her friend at the time of the conversation, and while the details of their friendship may not have made it appropriate for him to vent to her for two hours over his disappointment, she’s pretty clearly expressing disdain over his feeling of rejection. Again, maybe he was wrong to go to her with those feelings, but that’s a different issue. I don’t agree with her that his thoughts were inappropriate or misguided. I don’t think his statements (like “girls always complain that there aren’t any good guys!”) necessarily imply entitlement. Just sounds to me like he’s frustrated at his inability to impress this girl, and I don’t think he deserves to be mocked for that frustration.
And that mocking tone continues through the next couple of paragraphs, and all the while there is a continued conflation of disappointment and entitlement that I believe to be unfair. And overall, I think there’s a cavalier tone of “I expect you to be nice to me and I don’t owe you for it.” Is she wrong? Not strictly speaking, because yes, it ought to be a baseline expectation that everyone is mutually kind to one another. But the fact is that in our Duke society, not everyone is mutually kind to one another (especially in the context of he hook-up culture). And while as a nice guy, I would never say I am “owed” anything, I would love a little recognition from time to time. (And from most girls to whom I’m nice, I do indeed get that recognition.) I suppose what I’m getting at is this: would it have been too much to ask for the author to, rather than say, “I expect you to be nice and I don’t owe you for it,” to say, “I expect you to be nice to me, and I will absolutely appreciate and cherish that, even though I won’t guarantee that my appreciation will be romantic”? Maybe I’m missing the point here, but I just think the whole post comes off as pretty callous to a huge group of guys who really truly are well-intentioned and who deserve to be appreciated (if not always romantically) and who have the right to be frustrated when they hope for romance and don’t receive it.
Duke Trinity says:
Feb 2, 2012
First, I would like to say that even if the tone in this piece might not have been the nicest or even the most appropriate, the message still holds true. Some of it might seem harsher and more insensitive than necessary, but the intent was probably to be blunt and humorous, not to tiptoe around the matter for fear of hurting good guys’ feelings.
And I think the point of including the conversation with a friend was that just because you see yourself as a nice guy doesn’t necessarily make you one. What does “nice” even mean anyway? Everyone has differing standards and views of the term. Who has the right to decide they’re nice and certain other people aren’t? And to the extent that humans aren’t perfect and often make mistakes, his labeling himself as nice might have been questionable. I personally interpreted the author’s tone as exasperation, not disdain, but of course I can’t speak for the author’s personal feelings.
I think there’s a general consensus that the facebook post went overboard and is wrong in many ways. Disappointment is fine. Jealousy is natural. We all feel it. Just try to be more mature and thoughtful about it.
Ana says:
May 6, 2012
Its interesting that when men are rejected they usually blame the rejector, (im not saying you do im just saying its the norm)whereas when women get rejected they either blame other women or their own failures.
What the author is trying to imply with the “was my friend” deal i think I understand out of personal experience, i’ve cut relationships with male friends because they tend to blame the woman and set their minds on ill talking to others about it. Ruining her reputation by calling her a “friend-zoner”.
That is very cruel considering the girl is only guilty of having other interests.
Anon says:
Jan 31, 2012
My conclusion from reading this is that the sign of an actual good guy is that he values his friendships with women just as they are, and if he asks someone out and she says no, he’ll let it go because she’s allowed to say no. He can still be hurt, disappointed, or whatever, but to take it out in a sexist way, by implying that the woman doesn’t know what she wants or is being duplicitous, is not a good-guy move at all. If you really don’t want to be friends with a woman after she’s turned you down, just don’t be friends with her anymore. But if you do want to be friends, don’t complain about it like you deserve more from her.
I think there’s a serious problem when we vilify a woman for saying yes (calling her a slut) and vilify her for saying no, which is what guys are doing when they complain about the “friend zone.”
Alisa says:
Apr 28, 2012
perfect comment
Ana says:
May 6, 2012
yes!
GF says:
May 14, 2012
Agreed totally. Simply put, a ‘nice guy’ WON’T pressure you into doing anything you don’t want to. If he wants to placate himself after being rejected by saying he’s a nice guy, why is that so wrong though? People do things to ensure their self-perception is kept stable ALL the time.
Irene says:
Jan 31, 2012
I think it’s pretty clear this post addresses a very specific type of “good guy,” namely the sort that proclaims himself a “nice guy” but casts abuse on those that reject him, as the author of the fb post does. If that’s not you, then congratulate yourself that this post wasn’t about you.
On the subject of your last comment, these posts were written by two different authors. I don’t think they’re completely at odds with each other – it’s a truth of adult life that we will all have to take risks and at some point accept rejection – but discrepancies are inevitable when you field contributions from many different writers.
Duke Guy says:
Feb 1, 2012
@Irene, let me start by saying that in NO WAY do I condone the Facebook post that started this whole discussion. It’s not appropriate, and it’s not respectful.
With that said, however, I don’t think the Facebook poster is alone in his sentiments. Rejection leads to disappointment, and one of the offshoots of that disappointment is sometimes anger. I think all of us at some point have had unreasonable negative thoughts toward an ex, or taken solace in a friend’s comment that “you’re too good for him/her anyway.” To an extent, those thoughts all fall in the same vein, and while I join you in condemning this particular person for choosing Facebook as his venue for expression, I think we have to be careful about underestimating the power of jealousy to transform thoughts and words. I’m not asking your forgiveness on his behalf…just trying to offer some food for thought about where those particular motivations might have come from.
And yes, I understand how it works taking contributions from multiple authors, but having worked on a multiple-author project, it is somewhat important to acknowledge discrepancies when they arise. As you point out, it’s important for men to take risks and then accept rejection (as the “Dear Duke Guys” post notes). But in order for a man to get up the courage to take those risks, he needs to convince himself (at least somewhat) that he has something to offer to the woman. Which means that when he’s turned down, part of his acceptance process is going to be disappointment in–which is distinct from disapproval of–her decision. And when I read this post, I see a condemnation of that disappointment.
Irene says:
Feb 1, 2012
I really don’t see why that is important. A newspaper may publish a series of perspectives on a single issue without having to clarify exactly how these perspectives differ from one another or how the newspaper itself sides – it’s understood that different perspectives represent different people and that’s that. If this were a “multi-author project” in the sense of a group writing assignment, I might understand the need, but it’s not. It’s intended as an outlet for a diversity of opinions.
I think this post is very clearly a condemnation not of his disappointment but of his entitlement and his anger, and personally, I do not think anger is an acceptable response to lack of interest, nor that any level of food for thought could change my opinion. I understand jealousy. I also understand that it is possible to deal with jealousy in a healthy and adult way without resorting to this kind of expression. What I think this man needs more than understanding is a wake-up call. Actually, I’m more curious why you think I would need to be reminded of the roots of jealousy or disappointment? Honest question: do you believe that someone like this experiences disappointment in a way I do not? I think this man is socialized in a way I am not, but I do not think we experience fundamentally different emotions.
Duke Guy says:
Feb 2, 2012
@Irene, I think I owe you an apology on several fronts.
First of all, I don’t think I properly understood that these perspectives are intended to be independent. With that said, I do think it’s missing the crux of my point to split hairs over who thinks what. I’m merely pointing out that these two thoughts are simultaneously circulating amongst the Duke community of women, and I’m pointing out that there is a potential bit of conflict between the two notions. That’s all I’m saying.
I’m sorry again if I came off as trying to change your opinion…the whole intent for writing the sentence about food for thought was to emphasize that I’m NOT trying to change your opinion, just offer up my thoughts, however invalid they may be.
And finally, most importantly, I’m sorry for sounding presumptuous that you needed to be “reminded of the roots of jealousy or disappointment.” I understood this to be a forum for discussion, and I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t necessarily know what I think. I’m working through my own thoughts as I write them, and there was no intent to imply that you didn’t understand jealousy or disappointment. I get that you understand them. It’s me who doesn’t. Not sure how best to express that. To answer your question, I certainly don’t think you experience disappointment in a different way than this Facebook poster, and as a result, I think you’d also react strongly to someone who was trying to criticize your feelings of disappointment. Which, as I wrote to Duke Trinity above, is what I feel this post is doing. Please understand that that’s my opinion, and that I’m not trying to change yours or tell you what to think. You understand these issues much better than I do, and I’m just expressing the way this made me feel. I apologize again if that’s , unfair, but I hope it isn’t.
Irene says:
Feb 2, 2012
No worries, I didn’t think you were necessarily trying to change minds. From your phrasing, I wondered if you believe that women experience disappointment differently because they are less often encouraged to pursue (which I have heard suggested from time to time), but it seems we’re on the same page.
Ana says:
May 6, 2012
The thing is, are you doing those things because you want her to fall in love with you or just as a friend?
Because if it’s out of the goodness of your heart, why are you even complaining, you are a friend not a “friendzoned”.
Women love friends and have no problem whatsoever with having friends being nice to them.
If you feel “friendzoned”; then what this post is trying to tell you is that there is a lot more going on in a woman’s head than “good guy – bad guy”, lots of factors apply including some as uncontrollable as chemistry and if she doesnt like you, she just doesnt. The same way you dont like absolutely every good girl you know.
If you act like a friend and she doesnt feel attracted to you she will be your friend, as far as she knows that’s what you both want.
In the post I think she says her body, not only in the sexual sense but also romantically.
Anonymous says:
Jan 31, 2012
Yes. Yes. And yes. Thank you. God bless you.
I was raped by someone who opened car doors for me, loved cuddling and holding hands, insisted on paying for dinner, and wanted a relationship instead of casual sex.
Take THAT to the bank, eh? Let’s not insult men by collapsing their human complexity to the “good guy”-”asshole” dichotomy.
A man lacking the self-confidence to approach me respectfully is not a “nice guy,” he’s insecure. And believe it or not, spending x number of hours in the library every week and waiting around for all your platonic female friends to wake up and realize what a hottie you are, will not rid a man of his sense of entitlement to women’s bodies.
I know lots of truly good men. Some are attracted to me. Some I am attracted to. None of them are waiting around for me to f*ck them. Turns out, they value me as a person, not just as a potential romantic partner. What a thought!
ctb says:
Jan 31, 2012
As a Duke male: great article, I think this is a very solid analysis on a fundamental gender issue that perhaps doesn’t get the attention it deserves. I don’t want to be as polarizing as others have been here, but I do want to support the idea that the “friend-zone” is not just a psychological safety net for failed, subpar, and lazy males as you have suggested. The friend-zone is certainly that for some people, but it truly exists as a byproduct of the asymmetry of dating culture – that is, the fact that men must initiate. The reason some men feel “friend-zoned” is because men are generally supposed to be relationship seekers and women are supposed to be passive evaluators, filterers, and being friend-zoned is being filtered. Just because it is an experience unique to males doesn’t make it inherently flawed, or stupid, or invalid. And that doesn’t mean women are to blame, either. Asymmetry guarantees that men and women will experience relationship failures in different ways and need to deal with it in different ways.
Stephen Shea says:
Jan 31, 2012
i was not sure where is stood on this until i read your post. I do find the term friend-zone archaic at best but understand the sentiment behind it. and agree that the issue is with the way courtship occurs in our society, however as i am a student of mathematics i can not make any claims about sociology or Psychology other then those from personal experience.
I personally do not consider my self a nice guy as all guys should be nice guys. I just try to act with kindness to all peoples and would like them to do the same. Thus in all my relationships both platonic and romantic i believe in making ones intentions known early on and for relationship to go as they will. the only entitlement anyone should feel from someone of any gender is one of mutual kindness and the opportunity to let a relationship grow as it will. I may be wrong and if so i would wish to be told so in an eloquent manner but a chance i think is not to much to ask.
Anon says:
May 13, 2012
Okay, but the “friendzone”, in what it’s described as, isn’t a male-only thing. Do you think that women don’t pursue romantic or sexual relationships with men, only to be rejected? The difference is that the friendzone isn’t just about unrequited love or attraction anymore, even though that’s what it’s often discussed as. The friendzone, to me, has become about a man honestly feeling like a woman owes him sex or a relationship because he was nice to her or he listened to her or he was her friend, when all he’s really done is meet the minimum standards for “not a jerk”. So many men I’ve seen complain about it have talked about it like it’s just a simple rejection of his pursuits or whatever, but it’s more than that, because the friendzone is also about straight-up anger. He’s angry that someone had the nerve to reject him after he was so nice to her – he’s angry that she has acted on her right to choose. The entire idea of the friendzone is sexist because it’s honestly about shaming women or getting mad at women for having and using the right to choose.
Sure, a guy can be jealous or disappointed or upset, but he has no right to be mad at a woman for not wanting to be in a relationship with him, just like I’ve got no right to be mad at a man for not wanting a relationship with me (which has happened to me with my friends, often).
So if you’re a man who doesn’t get mad at a girl, or the entire female population in general, for not wanting to date you or sleep with you, congratulations, this article wasn’t about you. If you are, though, this article was for you, and you should sit down and read it again until it really sinks in.
Carolina Guy says:
Jan 31, 2012
I think what we have here are guys feeling entitled to girls they are nice to, and girls who resent that notion. I think the entitlement comes from our absurdly messed up perspective of gender which is laced into everything from toys to entertainment. And I think the resentment a rebellion of that messed up gender inequality. I don’t think my actions and desires should be a factor in a girl’s decision to date or have sex, what she does with her time and body is completely up to her. If I am into someone being nice is just the basics, it’s not the extra mile. Nice guys are not manipulative people with sexist expectations. They are the resentful product of our ill conceived social dynamic. As long as girls go out with bad guys, the nice ones will always feel resentful. But that feeling shouldn’t get in the way of “she is a woman with equal rights as me and she can go on dates with whoever she wants to.” That is to say, being nice does not entitle you to anything special. You don’t get extra brownie points or extra attention from the girl you like. You should be nice because it is a good thing to be.
This same scenario, I’m sure, also happens to girls. There are nice girls out there who don’t get their man. But we rarely see girls post “dear males, I’m fed up.” That is because in our messed up society, most girls don’t have that feeling of entitlement guys do. And when they do, all hell breaks loose and girls are told that they messed up and can’t please their men or that they don’t have the right to be fed up with guys.
The idea here isn’t that being a good guy sucks because you don’t get the girl. The idea here is that the idiot who posted the Facebook comment is clearly misogynistic and selfish. He is putting out a message of generalization and blame on 50% of the population. In the same way “I am fed up with black people, black people don’t appreciate nice guys like me no matter how nice I am. They complain to me about other people they like all the time, but they don’t like me” is a racist comment, his comment is sexist.
However, to be fair, the underlying tone of guys will do whatever it takes to get in your pants is also a sexist generalization. To say that “you don’t deserve my body as a reward for being nice” is true, but assumes that all men are sexually motivated. While I would agree with that sentence, it undermines your credibility of being gender neutral.
This blog for some reason pops up on my Facebook quite a bit and I enjoy most of the posts here.
The Toaster says:
Jan 31, 2012
I’m sorry, I gotta strongly disagree with how this piece slanders nice guys. The main thing that bothers nice guys is the dichotomy between what traits society says girls are attracted to, and what girls are *actually* attracted to.
If you ask girls to describe their “dream guy,” a LOT of girls will say they want a prince charming / knight-in-shining-armor. Nice guys actually believe that, so they try to be kind and respectful and patient etc. and all the qualities of a heroic prince/knight.
The problem is that girls are actually attracted to confidence and strength. In our culture, being nice to others is viewed as what weak, spineless guys do, whereas being a cocky douche to others and bullying the weak and is seen as what confident, strong, manly guys do.
Sorry, nice guys, the fact is that girls simply are not attracted to you. :( The good news is, women (as a opposed to girls) are definitely very attracted to nice guys! (Hint hint: date older women!!!) The other choice, of course, is to learn how to act like a douchebag…
Neha says:
Jan 31, 2012
Why can’t nice guys be strong and confident as well? Again, I would like to give males and females enough credit not to box them into oversimplified dichotomies like the one you are utilizing now.
Slander is also a rather strong word. I don’t think there is anything slanderous or remotely untrue with the basic claim of this article, which is: men and boys who pride themselves on kindness should not (and if they really are “nice”) will not feel entitled to the romantic or sexual interest of their female friends. Primarily because the issue is one of standards- all guys should be respectful. All guys should be nice. As should all women. Period.
Maybe we’re talking to different women, but I have never witnessed any female friend of mine being attracted to “bullies.” Maybe most women are attracted to strength and confidence. Certainly, I, for one, do not find insecurity attractive; however, nor am I turned on by foolish performances of hypermasculinity. Nor am I particularly impressed by obvious performances of the “chivalrous prince charming ideal.” Again, human beings are more complicated than that.
Also, you don’t have to act like prince charming to be nice. Everyone should be nice, anyway. And if you’re actually friends with someone, it really shouldn’t be that difficult to be kind to someone you theoretically care about anyway.
If you consider yourself a “real” nice guy, then feel free to congratulate yourself that this post isn’t about you.
The Toaster says:
Feb 1, 2012
I think maybe I wasn’t very clear. There is a huge mismatch between what girls *say* they want and what they actually crave. Therein lies the nice guys’ dilemma.
It really isn’t girls’ fault, it’s just the way it is. When girls *say* what they want, they are using the logical, reasonable side of their brain. However, it’s the emotional, irrational side of their brain that determines who they fall head-over-heels for.
Duke Trinity says:
Feb 1, 2012
Yes, love defies logic. But the point of this article is that guys should be nice for the sake of being nice, not to get girls to like them or for any other predetermined purpose. As all people should be. A guy who’s insecure or a complete pushover might not be very attractive, but nice does not equal those things. You can be nice, confident, charming, and sexy all at the same time. Who knew, right? Not a lot of girls fall head-over-heels over complete assholes, or they wake up from that mistake relatively quickly.
The Toaster says:
Feb 1, 2012
Haha, clever usage of words there!
I think that a lot of nice guys just want what the douchebags have: crazy wild hookups and indiscriminate sex with lots of women. What is the supposedly “nice” way of asking for that?
Duke Trinity says:
Feb 1, 2012
In the case that a “nice guy” isn’t interested in long term relationships, being polite and honest will take you pretty far. Some variant of the following:”I really like you (if you do), but I’m not ready for a serious relationship right now (for various reasons). (Insert genuine compliments if appropriate.) However, I won’t deny I’m physically attracted to you and have thought about nsa sex. Let me know if you ever feel the same way.” And hopefully, you won’t stop being nice/friendly/a decent person if or when you obtain your goal. Because again, be nice for the sake of being nice. Otherwise, you’re not really a “nice guy.” You’re posing as one.
Duke Male says:
Feb 2, 2012
Um…this is Duke. Everybody here is a “nice guy.” Even those in the infamous Sigma Nu, who pretend to conform to the stereotype of being douchebag Party Ragers who think they’re the shit just because they consumed 1 milligram of coke with “hot” PiPhis. Trust me, even these guys do not come close to the measuring bar set by the frats at normal state schools.
In heart, these people and everyone here at Duke were brought up in a middle class/wealthy family. Everyone is smart here and they work hard. The simple difference is that some of these guys are CONFIDENT. They make firm decisions, and they’re not afraid to tell girls off when they feel like it.
The “nice guys” are people who receive validation from being what they are: a nice guy. They don’t even have the confidence to strike up a conversation with a lady waiting to get her food at the Loop.
The douchebags are nice guys with a false sense of ego. They try to appear all macho and manly, but a single rejection from a girl will bring them down like a popped balloon.
Sarah VN says:
Feb 3, 2012
While I agree with you that basically people at Duke are pretty great, I have a couple problems with your response. For one thing, your claim that “these people and everyone here at Duke were brought up in a middle class/wealthy family” is first of all not true and second of all no indicator of whether or not someone’s going to be a good person.
But also, if the “assholes” that girls are supposedly choosing over the “nice guys” aren’t really douchebags, but are just acting like it…how are we, how is anyone, supposed to tell the difference? If you’re acting like a jerk, people are going to perceive you as a jerk.
It seems to me like the way of thinking outlined in your comment traps women into being criticized whatever their choice. Dating a guy who acts like a jerk, but is secretly a nice guy, will perpetuate the sighing of, “Why do girls date assholes?” And if she doesn’t date him, that gives him the license to sigh and say, “Why don’t girls date nice guys like me?”
Nobody's Girl says:
Feb 8, 2012
The best part is how he signs himself, “Or rather New Found Asshole.” Like he just discovered his asshole and his prostate and he doesn’t care about girls anymore because he’s too busy masturbating!
I support his anal play. Anal play is the bomb.
Austinite says:
Apr 12, 2012
I feel that the notion asserted by many commenters, ‘everyone should be nice to everyone because we’re all people,’ is entirely naive. The structure of our society does not allow us to be nice to everyone, whether that’s because of lack of time, energy, or any other limited resource, so every act of kindness must be reserved for those we deem worth it. While that comes off as haughty and presumptuous, it’s a product of evolution. We can’t “bring soup” to every single person who’s civil to us, so such an act should be taken as an act deserving gratitude, not simply as an expectation. Everyone, male and female, should be thankful that anyone has accepted their flaws and found them worthy of precious kindness. The frustration of “New Found Asshole” stems from, most likely, a lack of gratitude for his, giving him the benefit of the doubt, kind actions. While sexism plays a part in it, it sounds more like he received insensitivity (The girl complained of other guys to him. Whether she was aware he was interested or not is a nonissue — such is the nature of insensitivity) in place of gratitude, which, in my opinion, warrants a complaint. A complaint against women, no, but a complaint against the individual. Overall, I’m stressing that self-entitlement should not stretch to kindness. While we should do our best to be nice to everyone we can, it is wrong to assume we deserve it ourselves.
Been There Seen That says:
Apr 28, 2012
Oh Lord! Although it seems as tho’ everyone in this discussion is of fair intelligence, I feel as tho’ I may be the oldest one (at 42 yrs). Going back & forth like this makes me want to put you all in separate rooms.
I remember this issue all too well from my youth, and I still know some of those Nice Guys. From the perspective of 10 or 20 or so years in the future, please know that those nice guys STILL seem to hold some kind of grudge toward me because I did not date them “long enough” or “date them at all.”
The author is speaking about those who DO expect something, and trust me…there are more of those types of Nice Guys out there than you think. I have ONE friend who was a “true” Nice Guy. He is now married & has a beautiful family and he is one of my best friends. Our families get together whenever we are in town. Never did he have a bad feeling toward me when I dated some stupid guy. He never failed to treat me with respect and dignity and eventually I learned that I deserved it. Now, because of him, I EXPECT it. (And don’t worry, I reciprocate it.)
The others who behaved as the author said are still single, still miserable and no longer the “nice guy”. They gave up on that as they said that “women don’t want nice guys”, they “want guys who treat them like crap”. I wonder why they cannot keep a good woman.
I know that some of you are debating how the article was phrased. Please look beyond it to the point. The point is a good one. Thanks for sharing your opinions but please stop arguing! It’s driving me batty. (And I’ll try to stop reading.)
Tony Young says:
Apr 28, 2012
There is no such thing as a “friendzone.” When you have to check your feelings at the door, and pretend that you didn’t just spend an entire evening punching your mattress into a pulp, throwing your keyboard against the wall, screaming at the top of your lungs wondering what went wrong, and then turn around and agree to “just be friends,” then you are being dishonest with that friend. You are lying to her and lying to yourself.
Women used to tell you, “I like you as a friend.” That was the old school def of “friendzone.” And as explained above, it’s dishonest. It also disproves the first point of thinking that you are “a good guy.” When it really means you think you’re a good guy but all this time, you have been manipulating yourself into this woman’s life just to gain access to her vagina. Ask yourself this: if you knew up front, when you first met her, that you had NO chance with her, would you still be her friend?
Mat Rose says:
Apr 30, 2012
There was actually a really good (if kind of ranty, which I don’t blame her for in the least) essay/post made on Livejournal back in 2005 about Nice Guys ™ – the same kind of “good guy” you’re talking about. (you can find it here: http://divalion.livejournal.com/163615.html, or by googling “nice guy livejournal” and it’s usually the first result: “No More Mr. Nice Guy”)
The idea that a woman owes ANYTHING to a guy just because he is a self-proclaimed “nice guy” is disgusting. Just because we’re into them doesn’t mean they’re into us, guys. Girls want a nice guy that they’re attracted to – just because you’re her friend, a guy, and not an (obvious) raging asshole doesn’t mean she has any obligation to be attracted to you.
Michael says:
May 7, 2012
As a guy, I have seen this issue many times and I actually agree, at least in basic principle, with the women who find this more than frustrating. Here’s why:
The term “NICE GUY” is thrown around a lot. Many men who have very little confidence seek to “earn” the attention of women through good behavior. They learned this as boys when they were rewarded with things from older women and were told that they were a good boy.
However, when they get into the world, it doesn’t work. It turns into an psychosis, where a man will become friends with a girl that he likes, and then treats her as well as he can while hoping to get her sexually attracted to him. It is manipulative and, in my opinion, a version of being a stalker.
These men don’t actually love these women. They make themselves “fall in love with” the woman and that justifies their obsession. But where the real obsession lies is in them being given outward approval (because they don’t have confidence).
Now, to be fair, many guys who have never really learned about relationships do this without meaning to. It just happens. So here’s how it works from a male psychological level.
Guys, if you:
- pretend to be a girl’s friend so you can get with her, you aren’t “being a nice guy”, you are lying.
- feel like the girl owes you something because she thinks that you are her friend (because you’ve been lying about your intentions), you aren’t a nice guy, you are being controlling and manipulative.
- let her lead you around while you build up ragingly lustful and romantic feelings coupled with resentment and jealousy, you aren’t a nice guy.
So, in this case, what is an ACTUAL NICE GUY? It is, surprisingly, the kind of man (or so I’ve been told many times over) that women enjoy dating (oh the shock!)
1) A nice guy respects a woman and her choices.
2) He wants to have fun with the girl and wants her to have fun with him. Is she likes him and he likes her, it’s fine. He doesn’t need anyone’s approval to want that or to do it. He just does it.
3) He knows that he wants a relationship with her and lets her know from the beginning (or when he realizes it). This is being honest.
4) He doesn’t place any expectations of love and or sex on the girl, because he is just seeing if they are the right fit.
5) He doesn’t get angry or jealous if it doesn’t work. Why? Because guys like this make a note of things and move on to find the woman that it will work with.
6) He believes in being a strong, solid and honest person in relationships and understands that a woman’s love and affection is hers to give, not his to earn through “being really nice to her”.
It really has to do with the guys confidence. They trickf**k themselves mentally into thinking that they are being chivalrous, etc. But what they are really doing is being sneaky and obsessing.
Stop obsessing. Get a life. Live well. The right woman will come along.
I say “Screw being a nice guy. Be a good man.” Watch what happens then.
Emily B. says:
May 8, 2012
This this so much this.
You are spot on.
Thank you.
Jake says:
May 9, 2012
You’re damn right. But I do think that in some ways, our society isn’t one that emphasises those 6 points you made – in fact, for me, it took getting into the online seduction community (a place that is definitely filled with assholes, but has a lot of info on female psychology) to figure that stuff out. Before then, being a ‘nice guy’ was all I thought it took.
When all you’re told on how to interact with girls is ‘be yourself’, it’s not going to lead anywhere. Why can’t they teach this stuff in schools?
In response to the original post – I think the writer thinks she has far more control over her sexual instincts than she actually does. You do indeed choose who you give your affections to, but those choices are influenced by a whole range of biological responses, that are far more physical than most people would like to think, I think.
GF says:
May 14, 2012
SO much truth in this, I think you should repost somewhere that is accessible to more males.
Although I do agree somewhat with Jake, in that a person’s choices are not as conscious as they’d like to think them.
GF says:
May 12, 2012
because ‘friendzone’ is less wussy-sounding than ‘unrequited love’ or ‘unreturned affection’. It rolls off the tongue easier…
Also, you must be one of the lucky people who have never had to feel the pain/suffering of ‘unrequited love’ if you think that the ‘friendzone’ is such a bed of roses. Your friendship IS a crappy consolation prize if I want something more and you don’t. Now I’m torn between being a good friend to you and not pulling my friendship away or removing the pain in my life of being close to you but not in the way that I want but being an asshole to you because I can’t be your friend.. Also, what kind of friend won’t try to understand that their friend who is into them can’t be around them because it hurts too much? that’s just selfish really.
I think a big differentiating factor between ‘nice guys’ and ‘assholes’ is that a nice guy actually wants a RELATIONSHIP with you, while an asshole just wants to f**k you. So go ahead and friendzone nice guys thinking that’s all they want while you wonder why you can’t meet a good guy that’ll stick around long enough the morning after to learn your middle name…
GF – Asshole and Nice Guy.
PZO says:
May 13, 2012
If you consider the friendship a “crappy” prize then you have no business being with her in the first place. If she really “can’t meet a good guy that’ll stick around long enough the morning after to learn your middle name”, people like you certainly aren’t the alternative.
GF says:
May 14, 2012
I’ve been rejected quite recently and am still friends with the girl because I’m mature enough to accept her right not to be into me and she’s a great person regardless of whether she’s into me or not. I’ve also had three relationships where the girl WAS my best friend… Now that my credentials are confirmed(LOL):
You’re overlooking the fact that a lot of people (men and women) hurt *A LOT* when being rejected and this IS how A LOT of them feel (the crappy friendship part) post-rejection. I reaaally liked a girl once and could not be her friend for a long time after she didn’t feel the same because it would be too much for me to be around her like that. We’re still really not friends. Then again, I also felt that the way she handled things wasn’t that great to me, so there was a sense of bitterness in it as well, admittedly. You’re also overlooking the fact that girls DO play with guys’ minds, lead them on etc etc so there is bitterness at the end of the day when a guy is finally rejected. All these posts make women out to be saints and the ones that do NO wrong.. obviously this is a far cry from the truth.
The focus has been on the woman thus far, and the right of said female to say ‘No.’ I agree totally with the person who said that “saying no is the most inalienable right a person…has.” I’ve ALWAYS believed this. So then what about the guy’s right to say “NO, I don’t want just a friendship?” No one is considering the guy’s feelings in all of this, which is really what the point of my post was. Why must a friendship be the automatic default if a man can’t have a relationship? Clearly he thinks the woman is great enough to want something more than friendship (not talking about just sex) but maybe he has enough friends, thanks.
Re-reading the original post, I realise I do also find fault with the ‘out of his reach statement’. I’d like to hear the grounds on why the woman was out of the writer’s reach. Was it on the basis of class? finances? social standing? ethnicity? The writer is seemingly approving of a system that categorises people and clearly indicates some are better than others. Aren’t all (wo)men inherently equal?
BTW If a guy ever says that a woman *deserves* the abuse she is getting just because she rejected him, that ISN’T a nice guy. If a guy doesn’t belittle you then kick you when you’re down it doesn’t mean he isn’t an a**hole and just because a guy says nice things to you doesn’t mean he is a nice guy.
Michael says:
May 14, 2012
GF – Whatever anybody calls it, unrequited attraction is absolutely real. I’ve experienced it and it sucked. So, I get what you are talking about..
All of this comes from a place of wanting to help you realize something that might help ease the pain you are going through.
1) It is ENTIRELY self created. The girl didn’t cause it. Some cosmic force didn’t cause it. It is all you and your internal process that is the root of your pain. The good news is that because you unwittingly did this, you can undo it.
2) If a girl’s friendship is a crappy consolation prize to you, then why are you torn? Self respect would dictate that if you want to be with a girl and she isn’t into it, that you move on.
If that isn’t the case, is it because either a) you don’t want to lose her in your life b) you don’t want to hurt her by pulling away your friendship.
Here’s how to handle those:
a) realize that life is a varied and beautiful thing. It’s a journey. Very few relationships last forever and there are, statistically over 150,000+ “the one” for everyone alive (an actual study).
You have to trust that you will be fine and date a decent amount of women that you can care about just as much as you have cared for this girl. It’s about confidence and not coming from an internal place of lacking.
b) If you are worried about hurting her, you doubly need to step away, at least for six months. You are not responsible for her emotions and she is not responsible for yours. If it hurts you to be around her as a friend, STOP doing it. (In other words, stop hitting yourself.) Just make a decision and talk to her. Just say you have to focus on you for awhile. It sounds harder than it is..
It is selfish that a friend would get upset that you have those feelings.. but it’s probably not that you have those feelings. It’s the emotional energy that she feels while knowing that she’s hurting you. (And, on a attraction level, you are lowering her interest drastically when you carry on about this. This isn’t fact, it’s true. You’ve seen all the responses on here.)
Not all guys who just want to have a quick fling with a girl is an asshole and not all girls want relationships. Trust me. Judging people like that is severely going to limit your life view and experience.
“Nice guys” are not what women are looking for. That’s it. No matter how hard you argue and plead and whine and cry, it’s not going to change anything. The reason girls go for what many nice guys called “jerks” or “assholes” is because they appear to have a strong internal frame and are usually self amusing.
They may actually be assholes, in which case, they become the sad story that all girl have. BUT – what if you were to learn to be internally self reliant and unshakable, but kept the sense of being a good person that you already have? That’s called being a good man – and, according to many, many women, we are in serious shortage.
Developing yourself is the right way to get over this. Getting upset and staying in the area of pain is decidedly not.
* I’m sure that some of this will piss you off, but you need to hear it. I expect some sort of pained response about how I’m wrong about you or that I don’t understand.
I assure you, I do. And I overcame it and have found real internal power. You can do it too. The sooner, the better – not just for you, but for the women and people around you.
Good luck, man.
GF says:
May 15, 2012
Michael: Pained response from me? no sir. Life, as you said it, is a journey.. towards self-betterment. Why would I spit in the face of someone who is trying to help me become a better person?
At the same time though, don’t think that a lot of what I said is the only way I feel about all situations. I’m often a devil’s advocate because I think debate, discussion and in some case argument is important for an issue. I also feel that the article was a bit one-sided.
Case in point: I don’t judge people based on ‘quick flings = assholes and girls = relationships’. There are many, many shades of grey in life, which is why I believe less in ‘right and wrong’ and more in ‘socially acceptable/unacceptable’. As such, I often see things from multiple viewpoints and on another day I’d be more in agreement with the ladies here. It’s just the hat I chose to wear in this debate.
I thank you for your words and the writer for this article. Both have definitely and surprisingly pleasantly added substance to my life.
XY says:
May 13, 2012
One of the things that is important in the whole “but I’m a nice guy!”-rhetoric is self esteem. Rejection is always painful and will often be a blow to self esteem. The whole “but i’m a nice guy”-rant may just be a way to try and convince himself (often by seeking confirmation from others) that there is nothing wrong with him, but that the person who turned him down is wrong.
Of course, that doesn’t change the fact that the male in question is ignoring his crush’s right to decide for herself. Saying no is the most inalienable right a person (either gender) has. Reasoning that this is “wrong” is troubling. The right to say no does not need to present any arguments or reasons.
The so called “nice guy” is not that nice at all.
NS says:
May 14, 2012
A couple of things occurred to me as I read through this article and its comments:
1) No one is under any obligation to like someone because of the way that person treats them. There is so much that goes into both friendship and romantic relationship beyond just that–someone can be really nice and outgoing to you because they just want to be your friend, and that doesn’t mean you’ll want to be their friend back. Sometimes two people don’t feel the same way about each other, either platonically or romantically, and while it sucks, it’s just the way the world works. You can feel disappointed, but I agree, being angry is not really fair.
2) Someone mentioned this earlier, but we aren’t all nice to all people in the same way. In other words, there are many people who, if they really like someone (and I think both sexes do this), are more likely to try and “be nice” to that person in order to gain that person’s affection. This might mean being a good listener, or doing things you might not if the other person weren’t interested in it, or sexual activity, or something else. I don’t think these are even conscious strategies most of the time. People unconsciously do things that they hope will make them look good in someone else’s eyes. The person to whom / for whom you do those things does not owe you anything, to be sure.
3) That said, if you know someone is interested in you, (and again, I think many people, regardless of sex, have a sense of it, more often than not), and you take advantage of that person’s feelings in order to have your needs met, it’s a tricky situation. I don’t actually know what I think of it morally. I’ll explain more below. What do you all think about a reversal of the situation? This is not intended to be a reflection (mostly because of the sexual element) but a refraction: if a girl likes a guy, and because she likes him, she decides to sleep with him, because she thinks it will make him like her. And he likes her enough to sleep with her, but not to be with her. And she doesn’t push the issue, or ask to be in a relationship, or anything like that, but they keep sleeping together. Or, to extend it further, she brings it up, and he says “naw, I’m not really interested in being in a relationship,” but they keep sleeping together anyway, with either party initiating, and to be clear, with full consent. What does that make the guy? I’m inclined to say it makes him a jerk, but the question is whether our original situation (a woman engaging with a man to have emotional needs met, perhaps knowing that he displays those because of additional sexual attraction) is different. I guess it boils down to the value differences you place on sex and “niceness.” And again, I’m operating on the assumption that these nice guys are being nice in a way that typical friends are not.
5) I did think that the expression “she was quite a bit out of his reach” from the original post was a bit dismissive and unfair. That would be similar to saying that a girl’s feelings of rejection when a guy doesn’t like her are somehow less valid if that guy is “too hot,” “too smart,” or “too cool” for her. I obviously don’t know the specifics, but as tons of folks here have said, people are entitled to feel rejected, the issue is whether or not they express that rejection in an appropriate way.
6) Sorry for this to be so long, but one last question. If a guy gets rejected by a girl, he has been trying (consciously or unconsciously) to be nice to, and decides not to put in more emotional energy into that relationship so as not to be more hurt, is that an inappropriate response? Again, I guess this operates under the assumption that niceness isn’t uniform across the board, so maybe that’s the thing that I’d want to hear more from people about.
Michael says:
May 14, 2012
I’ll try to help with the questions, if it matters to anyone. lol
6) It is absolutely appropriate to stop putting emotional energy into an interaction where you aren’t getting your needs met. If you aren’t getting them met, fine. Just move on and find someplace where it will.
Remember, you are an important person. It’s okay to ask for and receive what you want.
5)Expressing rejection in an appropriate way is and interesting way to word that. Emotions make people act in irrational ways, so, if we are really being honest about it, there is no such thing as appropriate.
You can count on people acting out when they are rejected by saying something negative, generally in the “so and so’s a jerk” or “I’m such a victim” vein.
Rejection is the same for everyone, it’s how we internally handle it that makes all the difference. Strangely, the most attractive people (internally first, externally second), seem to be the best at handling rejection. Thinking about why that is can really jump someone forward in how they look at relationships. :)
As far as number 3, it doesn’t make you a jerk. For instance, I have the situation that you have mentioned. There is a beautiful girl that I am very attracted to and really enjoy her company and sometimes, we have sex. She initiates just as much as I do.
She told me that she wants a relationship with me and I told her that I wasn’t in the place where I could do that. I told her my reasons and let her know that if she didn’t want to still have a sexual relationship with me anymore, that there wouldn’t be hard feelings.
But if she wanted to keep seeing me in that way, that she had to understand that I wasn’t going to become exclusive anytime soon. And we continued on with our sexual relationship..
Does that make me a jerk? Perhaps I’m biased. In fact, I bet that I am. But my question is, whose decision is it to have sex with someone? Am I using some sort of crazy mind control over her?
No. I was being honest. She knows that I’m attracted to her, that I like having sex with her and that I’m not interested in an exclusive relationship. She also knows that I am not wrapped around her finger and am allowing her to make her own decisions about being involved with me.
GF says:
May 15, 2012
The female friend who posted the link to this article on my facebook engaged me in a thought-provoking and satisfyingly intelligent debate, where she was arguing many of the points raised herein. My final post on the debate was as follows,
“What I am going to take from this article and debate *insert friend’s name here*, is that I have learnt the way women view this phenomenon and I can better adjust my behaviour in the future to show more consideration for their feelings.”
So while I believe that the value system we are all speaking about is highly subjective and because of this many people won’t see eye to eye, the point is that I’d *really* like to have women, both friends and romantic interests, in my life and if this is the way they see things then I’ll be considerate to their view/feelings in the future.
Rick says:
May 15, 2012
Hmm. I am lost and will always be(not to mention, probably a little screwed in the head too). Why, you might ask. Well, for one…the planet is melting! Yes, and it’s because of how we do business. Of course that’s the easy part, right?
Now I find myself on this planet wanting to find some ass and maybe even a mate, but who can I talk to about this? LOL And in fact I hate being called a nice guy if you know what I mean. I have to say though, I attempt(in vain most times) to bring both to the table; sex/’love’ and a dying planet, I have no choice. “She’s got a nice ass but the carbon emissions of one American is 250 times greater than a Ethiopian(pop control vs. consumption). LOL Now what.
It is not about sex, but most ‘people’ can’t stomach such a view. But it hardly gets to that point; both people at that table with said issues up front.
That’s Architecture101, everything under one roof, no? I say, plunder is groundless and only leads to further breaking, that nothing has ever been broken as proof of anything. But who can I tell this to?
It is almost joke to try to carry on a conversation talking this way.
And the ‘energy’ of sex as consolation, really? I think maybe something is missing here. So men sleep w/ who(or whom, not sure) will let them, women–with whom they want? Not to mention, confiding in someone(or many) is very difficult these days.